TV Taboos - Television Theme

Tanner 0:01

Well, yeah, I mean, everyone knows that's the sexiest

Sups 0:03

part of it woman,

Andi 0:05

So back to star Trek, I love

Tanner 0:07

star Trek.

Andi 0:08

50 years from now, are you gonna be like, can

Tanner 0:10

you believe that you

Andi 0:11

nipples?

Tanner 0:12

can't show butts on TV's basically what this boils down to. Yeah.

Andi 0:17

well, obviously the butt is both sexual and atory. And she said it was like, who

Tanner 0:24

cares?

Andi 0:24

Yeah, she was over it.

Sups 0:26

It's shared

Andi 0:28

Hello and welcome to this episode of the, I should have known podcast, the trivia podcast that can't be trusted each week. Our quiz master presents you with four big facts on a topic, but one of those facts is a lie. And this week we are finishing up our TV themed month and I will be your quiz master I'm Andy. And I'm going to be presenting you. Four facts about TV taboos. But one of my facts is a lie. So join our other host soups and Tanner and trying to figure out which one it is.

Tanner 0:58

Taboos.

Andi 0:59

Yeah. So get ready to be uncomfortable. so love hanging fruit. What show had what is widely, but erroneously considered the first interracial kiss on TV

Tanner 1:11

erroneously. So the first thing is wrong already.

Andi 1:14

this is why it's the low hanging fruit. Yeah.

Tanner 1:16

I always heard that it was star Trek.

Andi 1:19

yes. so Quite famously in the us in the original series star Trek in 1968, characters captain Kirk and Lieutenant Auraura. Captain Kirk is played by William Shatner, who is a white actor. And Lieutenant aura is played by Michelle Nichols, who.

Tanner 1:37

is

Andi 1:38

Black actress. They kissed in this episode,

Tanner 1:40

mm-hmm,

Andi 1:41

So this is a good, low hanging fruit because it illustrates a couple caveats. We need to keep in mind for this episode. Okay. So one is, we're gonna be talking exclusively about the us. Okay. Because actually a British movie on TV had a black, white kiss. About nine years before. also this fact is confusing because what's a kiss and what's interracial. So some of the taboos and things we talk about, it's kind of like you can get really into the weeds. We're not gonna do that. We're gonna keep it kind of light. We're not gonna care about more obscure places.

Tanner 2:13

Yeah.

Andi 2:14

And then the other issue that comes up is incidental versus scripted. So this was a scripted moment. Mm-hmm in the. This was not, you're doing a live show on the streets and a couple kisses. This is like they planned this kiss. The reason this kiss is remembered more is one because star Trek was hugely popular. Whereas these other shows were not. And two, because it was in the us. So in the us only one year before this kiss, it was still illegal in some parts of the country for black and white people to marry.

Tanner 2:48

Hmm damn.

Sups 2:49

All right.

Tanner 2:49

That was certainly a taboo then Wow.

Andi 2:51

That was a big moment.

Tanner 2:52

So with this episode, we're really gonna have to try to get into the mindset of the people at the time.

Sups 2:57

Right?

Andi 2:57

Well, some of the taboos some people would say they are still taboos there's some of them are still debated, but yes, some of these are definitely gonna be like, wait, people cared about

Tanner 3:06

that. Okay.

Andi 3:07

I think fact number one, it will be a good example. So we're going roughly chronologically. Great. So fact number one, first four major shows with couples shown in the same bed together. Starred real life married couples.

Tanner 3:21

couples.

Sups 3:22

Oh, wow.

Andi 3:23

it wasn't until 1964, before a couple was shown in a single bed together where the actors weren't married.

Tanner 3:30

Wow. They just straight up didn't show people in beds.

Andi 3:33

So back in the day, first of all, it have to be a married couple.

Tanner 3:36

Yeah.

Andi 3:37

We just, it has to

Sups 3:37

to be. Yeah. Yeah,

Tanner 3:38

yeah.

Andi 3:38

If there was ever a scene of them in their bedroom, like going to sleep, they had two separated twin beds. So they slept in two separate twin beds. Mm-hmm on off screen

Tanner 3:47

and it wasn't like they were divorced or they were having trouble or anything. Nope. They were a happy couple.

Andi 3:53

yeah. And actually for a lot of these shows the couples started separate beds and then eventually they just kind of were like, this is annoying. just put 'em in one bed. Who cares?

Tanner 4:02

bit. Yeah.

Andi 4:03

yeah. So the very first show. To have, this was actually the first sitcom ever as a very rarely known show called Mary Kay and Johnny. Okay. This show came out in 1947.

Tanner 4:17

Wow.

Sups 4:18

okay.

Tanner 4:19

Very early.

Andi 4:20

Which is why if you've never heard of it, you can be forgiven because all of the tapes were destroyed.

Tanner 4:26

Oh, no,

Andi 4:27

Only one episode survives and a few fragments.

Sups 4:30

fragment.

Tanner 4:31

is a thing that I read about with how TV works. It was more cost effective to reuse the tapes or to get rid of them. So this totally makes sense that they lost all the tapes, or they destroyed them idea.

Andi 4:40

So the. Characters, Mary Kay and Johnny were Mary Kay and Johnny Sterns who were a married couple mm-hmm and they were shown in a bed together. The next famous show was, I love Lucy. Oh, also a show called the adventure of Ozzie and Harriet.

Tanner 4:56

heard those names. Yeah.

Andi 4:57

And then be witched, which also stars a real life married couple The first major show was the monsters. Oh, okay. In 1964.

Tanner 5:06

they weren't married.

Andi 5:07

the actors weren't married. Yeah. actually. you might read sometimes that the first show with a couple that's not married in a same bed is the Flintstones

Tanner 5:18

oh, because it's they're voice actors. Oh goodness.

Andi 5:21

Yeah. So that's hilarious. That's kind of often people will say it's the Flintstones. Yeah. Obviously that's an animated show.

Tanner 5:27

so

Andi 5:28

Nobody was in the bed together at all. Anyway. Yeah.

Tanner 5:31

Mm-hmm

Andi 5:32

this whole concept is super bizarre to me

Sups 5:36

was this like a reflection of the society back then? I mean, this taboo has to come from

Tanner 5:41

somewhere. Yeah. Was it risque to show people in bed or was it showing people in bed together meant they were gonna have sex or like, what was the issue?

Andi 5:49

Honestly, I don't know. I really think it's just the suggestion of sex, right. That you're in bed. So it's suggestive, I

Tanner 5:56

I see mm-hmm okay.

Andi 5:57

And I think the idea was that the sensors weren't as upset because they knew that those two people are married anyway.

Tanner 6:04

Right.

Andi 6:04

So it's not like they're promoting premarital sex or something,

Tanner 6:08

Yeah. It's not as risque. That's a very

Sups 6:10

weird tip. And then we have, shows of today where We've taken a complete

Andi 6:15

U-turn Yes. Well, yeah, we have come a long way. I suppose you could say.

Sups 6:19

very interesting.

Andi 6:20

Well, yeah,

Sups 6:21

as if, if they didn't promote it on TV, people weren't gonna have sex. Like, so

Andi 6:25

it's pretty ridiculous. Nowadays. But this was a big

Tanner 6:29

deal.

Andi 6:29

Yeah.

Tanner 6:30

But like trying to figure out if the, that could be a lie, you know, it would be the married couple part for me.

Sups 6:35

Yeah.

Tanner 6:35

I'll have to see what the next fact, I guess.

Andi 6:38

So back number two Cher was allowed to show her belly button on the sunny and Cher show, because it was an Audi.

Sups 6:49

Audi.

Andi 6:49

So just real quick, if you don't know

Sups 6:53

that Wow.

Andi 6:54

Belly button is an Audi, like the fleshy part inside sticks out. Yep. Yep. If you don't know it, then

Tanner 7:00

and the other one is an inny.

Andi 7:01

Most people have inny right where you're belly button goes in. Right. But she had an Audi. So this is considered to be the reason why she was allowed to. this was in 1975 mm-hmm And before that it was absolutely not allowed to show a female belly button,

Tanner 7:17

a female, one

Andi 7:18

specifically female

Tanner 7:19

Naval. Well, yeah, I mean, everyone knows that's the sexiest

Sups 7:22

part of it woman,

Tanner 7:22

so

Andi 7:25

Oh man.

Sups 7:26

Yeah.

Tanner 7:26

Wow.

Andi 7:27

Yeah, there's a show called I dream of genie,

Tanner 7:30

Mm-hmm

Andi 7:30

Starting Barbara Eden, and she had to go through great lengths to ensure her belly button didn't show because she wore kind of a, like a belly dancer esque outfit, cuz she's a

Sups 7:41

a genie Jeanie.

Andi 7:42

And it was high wasted. It covered her belly button, but barely, she actually had to wear like a prosthetic, like a patch of skin to protect her really belly button because it would fall all

Tanner 7:54

the time.

Andi 7:54

Yeah. she said it was a nightmare to shoot with it. So this reminds me of the issue nowadays with nipples.

Sups 8:01

Yeah.

Andi 8:01

Yeah.

Tanner 8:02

Men's nipples

Andi 8:02

are okay. You can't show female nipples. You can show male ni.

Tanner 8:05

Mm-hmm

Sups 8:06

that really bothers me on Instagram. Like, all these models posting the photos, everything's out there, but you just blur out that And suddenly that's okay. Yeah.

Tanner 8:13

Yeah. Okay. And if you put a sticker of a male nipple over the top, then it wouldn't get blurred. Yeah,

Andi 8:19

So a lot of people kind of compare it to that. Whereas like the belly button used to be seen apparently as an obscene part of your body and, and was taboo. So the deal with the sunny and Cher show, it was a comedy hour skit show. And. Share many times wore outfits that showed her entire midriff, right. Uhhuh. And she made this choice, this wasn't an accident. She made the choice to show her belly button. And she said it was like, who

Tanner 8:46

cares?

Andi 8:46

Yeah, she was over it.

Sups 8:48

It's shared

Andi 8:49

yeah,

Sups 8:50

I,

Andi 8:50

Right. And she. Was really thin at this time and, and quite muscular. So her belly button like stuck out. Yeah. and they were like, well, this is fine, cuz it's not sexy.

Tanner 9:00

Mm.

Andi 9:01

One of her producers basically justified it that.

Tanner 9:04

like,

Andi 9:05

because of her body type. It's not sexy. So it's fine.

Tanner 9:09

wow.

Andi 9:10

very much disagree. I have seen pictures. I think it's plenty sexy, but it wasn't obscene.

Sups 9:15

Okay. Wow.

Tanner 9:16

That's awfully

Andi 9:17

weird.

Tanner 9:17

I never heard of something like that. Like, oh, it's an Audi. Okay. You

Sups 9:20

can show it

Andi 9:21

but if you watch like old shows from that era, all the women are wearing high waisted, everything, high waisted bikinis, you can show an entire leg, but

Tanner 9:30

not the belly button

Andi 9:32

But I think

Tanner 9:33

Cher is amazing. Good for her, for pushing to wear what

Andi 9:36

wherever she wanted. Yeah. Yeah.

Tanner 9:37

that's awesome.

Andi 9:38

yeah. You know, 1975 was what almost 50 years ago, you know, 50 years from now, are you gonna be like, can

Tanner 9:43

you believe that you

Andi 9:44

nipples? Like they had to blur the nipple. Yeah. You know, so maybe, yeah, I think so. Maybe it'll be like

Tanner 9:48

that. I'll have to wait and see just like we have to wait and see what fact three

Sups 9:52

is.

Andi 9:53

Good segue. fact, number three, the first same sex kiss on network TV between women occurred almost 10 years before the first between men.

Tanner 10:04

Okay. Okay.

Andi 10:05

And again, this is network TV, and this is a TV show. So we are ignoring TV, movies, and plays being shown on TV. We're talking about scripted network TV. Okay. So the show on NBC was called LA law.

Sups 10:19

Oh,

Andi 10:19

And featured a kiss between a by woman and a straight woman. Okay. basically the show coined the term lesbian kiss episode.

Sups 10:28

Oh,

Tanner 10:28

Oh,

Andi 10:28

which wow.

Tanner 10:30

where would we be without the lesbian kiss episode?

Sups 10:33

I think Nielsen ratings

Andi 10:35

what was

Sups 10:35

like next level.

Tanner 10:36

then? Or did they scare away? People cause of the taboo.

Andi 10:39

So that was the point of a lesbian kiss episode is one where it doesn't really have anything to do with the plot or the characters, but is entirely to generate shock and

Tanner 10:48

conversation. Yeah.

Andi 10:49

a hundred percent that was. How people viewed it, the writer's claim, it was to further flesh out one of the characters, but the relationship doesn't go anywhere. Right. this is not a couple, one of the women. She's like a one time character. This is the episode. She's a so it's for shock value. Yeah. In 1991 there were a few other shows that had kisses between women. Also it's important to note, this is a romantic

Tanner 11:13

ish kiss

Andi 11:14

Uhhuh So back to star Trek, I love

Tanner 11:17

star Trek.

Andi 11:17

Yes. So in star Trek, two female characters Auraura and nurse chapel, they kiss on the mouth. But like a very quick, like almost French, like

Tanner 11:27

greeting, not

Sups 11:28

a French kiss, Not a French kiss. Yeah, yeah, yeah. oh my God.

Andi 11:33

No, not a French.

Sups 11:34

kiss. That would

Tanner 11:35

take a couple of

Andi 11:35

minutes,

Sups 11:36

but

Tanner 11:37

like a greeting, like Yeah. Greeting. Oh, hi. Nice to see you smooch.

Andi 11:40

Yes. A greeting kind of like on the corner of the mouth, it's not romantic, so that doesn't count. We're talking about people who are like,

Sups 11:47

Romantically right.

Andi 11:48

kind of, because apparently they didn't have a relationship anyway. And so then between male characters was in 2000 on Dawson's

Tanner 11:57

Creek. Oh,

Andi 11:58

wow. Have

Tanner 11:59

you heard of Dawson's

Andi 12:00

Yeah. I've heard

Tanner 12:01

Dawson's

Sups 12:01

I think very difficult. Not to hear about. Yeah.

Andi 12:04

Yeah. Mm-hmm so Dawson's Creek was a teen drama, right? Becoming of age and these two characters. It was actually very dramatic. It was a big build up. It was a season finale episode and these two male characters kiss. And this one is kind of considered to be the first gay, passionate kiss on TV passion, all the ones before, especially between the women, it was either they were testing kind of like, I think I might be Gabe like, oh, I'll find out

Tanner 12:34

from one

Sups 12:35

kid. And that's how you find out whether you're gay or

Tanner 12:38

not go around kissing people.

Sups 12:39

kissing's the kids test.

Andi 12:42

apparently. Okay. Oh, wow.

Tanner 12:44

but the, passionate part.

Andi 12:45

Yeah. So these two characters on Dawson's Creek, They were kind of dating and it was a very romantic moment. And so it was like these two characters. were like in love, kind of mean they were teenagers. Right. You know? Yeah. But this was like real romance. it was very cute. Like you get the warm fuzzies. It's not sexy. It's not testing. It's not for fun. or a joke. Yeah. Because a lot of kisses between, male characters for laughs. Right.

Sups 13:09

That To me doesn't

Tanner 13:10

count mm-hmm

Andi 13:11

Right.

Tanner 13:12

But it was still a taboo.

Andi 13:13

It was a pretty big,

Tanner 13:14

deal.

Sups 13:15

and

Andi 13:15

it was a

Tanner 13:15

hit for the show. Yeah. I was gonna say, how did the

Andi 13:18

rating suit.

Sups 13:18

I mean, Dawson's Creek

Tanner 13:19

was a popular show. Yeah. It's interesting that we were talking about taboos. And so it might turn people off, but with TV, you play into that shock factor and it Turns people on or at least they

Sups 13:30

turn on the TV. Oh,

Andi 13:31

what the,

Sups 13:35

Wow.

Tanner 13:36

Yep. I

Sups 13:36

can

Tanner 13:37

that. Yeah. There's still some room for it to be a lie, but I think that's

Andi 13:41

believable. That's my note back number four. Okay. Fact number four. I'm

Sups 13:44

re excited about

Tanner 13:45

number four. Okay.

Andi 13:46

Fact, number four. originally the FCC find ABC 1.4 million for a shot of a female backside on N Y P D blue, even though the scene was not sexual,

Tanner 14:00

can't show butts on TV's basically what this boils down to. Yeah.

Andi 14:04

the scene was not sexual this female character is. At like her boyfriend's house and her boyfriend has an eight year old son and she's getting ready for the shower and the boy walks

Sups 14:14

in.

Tanner 14:14

Okay.

Andi 14:15

And so you get the shot of her whole ass and her whole back. And then the camera flips, which I actually think is even a better shot where it's to the front. But because as a child, he has big ears and they're like very perfectly over her nipples. And it's like, it's actually a really great

Tanner 14:32

shot. Oh wow

Sups 14:32

It's very autistic, I

Andi 14:34

Yeah. They like planned it. They were thinking how much can we show

Tanner 14:37

Well, they were also probably thinking how much is the fine gonna be for this

Andi 14:42

Just so everyone knows the FCC is the federal communications commission. So they're the body of the us government that is in charge of the standards relating to broadcasting

Tanner 14:53

mm-hmm So they censor

Sups 14:54

the cen board.

Andi 14:55

yeah. So at the time this was the largest fine that they had given out. Because this episode came out in 2003, but the FCC didn't issue its fine until 2008.

Tanner 15:07

What

Andi 15:08

The network had shown the show many times. And so they got fined. like a hundred thousand plus dollars per showing. And so then that totaled to $1.4 million. This show N Y P D It was famous for sexuality and nudity on TV. This is a network show, right? It's on ABC. Well, it was, it ran, 1993 to 2005.

Tanner 15:32

Wow. It's a long run.

Andi 15:34

yeah. So they'd really push the envelope on this mm-hmm and so a lot of people hated the show.

Tanner 15:40

it's too much for them too much taboo

Andi 15:42

I mean yeah.

Tanner 15:44

So the, but that was shown was not sexual.

Andi 15:47

Yeah. the thing that also kind of wrinkled people was the show had shown a man's butt many times,

Tanner 15:55

which many

Andi 15:55

big deal Yeah. But they didn't get fined for showing a man's butt. Right. But then there's this seven, second

Sups 16:01

of are you surprised at this point?

Andi 16:04

I dunno if you've

Tanner 16:05

noticed

Andi 16:06

a, theme with

Tanner 16:07

I should have known

Sups 16:09

should known, like, I know this,

Andi 16:11

Yeah. So actually, in 2011, this went to the Supreme court among other cases and was thrown out because they said that the FCCS rules were too vague and violated the first amendment of free speech. Because the rule said you can't show These body parts in relation to sexual and exploratory activities.

Sups 16:33

Okay. Mm-hmm

Andi 16:34

so they were like, well, obviously the butt is both sexual and atory.

Tanner 16:39

but not if it's not on a toilet or in a bed, right.

Sups 16:42

Or on the beach.

Tanner 16:43

in a car, right? Yeah It

Sups 16:44

the car. Yeah. Okay.

Andi 16:46

Yeah. So this did get thrown out eventually.

Sups 16:48

So ABC didn't pay the fine. No.

Tanner 16:50

Okay

Sups 16:50

Good Some sense prevailed.

Andi 16:52

yeah,

Sups 16:52

okay. So we must check this episode out to decode it

Tanner 16:55

To find seven seconds of a $1 million butt

Sups 16:58

All right.

Andi 16:59

that is a $1.4 million ask. Actually the actors had mentioned that she was honored.

Tanner 17:04

wow

Andi 17:04

Yeah

Tanner 17:05

Yeah. That's kind of hard to believe. That's a lot of money.

Andi 17:08

It's interesting to think. What's the next taboo to be

Tanner 17:11

be broken. Right

Sups 17:12

So Andy before Tanner and I take a guess, which, As the lie could you please repeat the facts for us?

Andi 17:19

Of course. So fact number one, the first four major shows with couples shown in the same bed together. Starred real life, married couples fact number two, share in the sunny and share show was allowed to show her belly button because it was an Audi fact. Number three, the first same sex kiss on network TV between women occurred almost 10 years before the first between men and fact number four. Originally the FCC find ABC 1.4 million for a shot of a female backside on N Y P D blue, even though the scene was not sexual. One of those is all lie.

Tanner 18:12

Oh, boy,

Sups 18:13

What you thinking?

Tanner 18:14

These are tough. I really like fact number two. I want that one to

Sups 18:18

be true. Oh no I think, I think that's like you think so. Mm I think it was just blanket, belly button, like you know? and she was allowed to maybe because of some other, other reason, not because of this,

Tanner 18:31

Audi. Yeah.

Sups 18:32

No, I have a feeling it's number two, but even though I want it to be true. Yeah. But I don't know. What are you

Tanner 18:36

thinking? That's a good idea. Yeah. I'm thinking it might be the third one. I think maybe they showed men kissing before women

Sups 18:44

See you're saying that Dawsons Creek was like the first one or even Dawsons Creek is a light.

Tanner 18:50

Maybe it's a different show or maybe Dawson Creek was accurate, but the women kissing was later, right. LA law.

Sups 18:57

Ooh that could be interesting. That is actually the men

Tanner 19:00

kissing. Yeah. Yeah.

Sups 19:01

Yeah no, I'm gonna stick to my gut. Stick with number

Tanner 19:04

two. Okay. I like the other ones and they make a

Sups 19:06

a lot of sense.

Tanner 19:07

Yeah. I'm gonna go with number three.

Sups 19:08

Okay.

Andi 19:09

Okay. The women did kiss

Tanner 19:10

first. They really

Andi 19:11

really did. Yeah. The women kissed first, but they were showing like male couples in like the seventies. Yeah.

Tanner 19:18

So they said that they were gay, but they weren't kissing.

Andi 19:20

Yeah Yeah. They were a couple, they're married or their partners or whatever in the seventies. Wow. But no one kissed until 2000 The lie is fact number two.

Tanner 19:30

Oh, it is Cher. Doesn't have an Audi.

Andi 19:33

Cher does not

Sups 19:34

have an

Tanner 19:34

Audi.

Andi 19:34

Oh yeah. Well, at least she did in 1975. I don't know now. Yeah, So I made up the Audi part. Cher was the first major and deliberate person to show belly button. But the reason was literally cuz she was Cher and she wanted

Tanner 19:50

to

Sups 19:50

See

Andi 19:51

she was like, it looks better like that I'm doing it. I don't

Tanner 19:54

Yeah I mean her name is in the title, so who's gonna tell her no

Andi 19:57

yeah. And the producers did say gross stuff about her belly button like that, she was very skinny and she was like really fit and skinny.

Tanner 20:05

mm-hmm

Andi 20:05

So they did say it was unsexy. But no one ever really gave a reason why it got to pass the sensor. Other than I think by 75 people were kind of more open to it. the us code of practice for TV broadcasters. they got rid of it eight years later. So it was kind of on its way out anyway, it was kind of not really being enforced anymore and she's share, so she's just, I'm doing it. So,

Sups 20:29

sense

Tanner 20:30

That's really cool.

Sups 20:30

Yeah.

Tanner 20:31

should have known,

Sups 20:32

I should have known

Andi 20:33

Thanks for listening to this episode of the, I should have known podcast. We are finished with our TV theme with this episode, and we'll be continuing onto a new one next month. And if you have an any belly button, you should share this episode with your friends. And thanks for listening.

Tanner 20:50

we get the erect penis